Hi, I did a bit of research on ‘honeysuckle absolute’ and deep in the spec sheets of one of the expensive sources I found that it contains the following ingredients: Honeysuckle Absolute oil is made with Rhodinol, benzyl acetate, linalol, methyl anthranilate, heliotropin. Personally, I do not think there is any honeysuckle absolute obtained from honeysuckle flowers. You have done a lot of work on this item and I commend your time and attention – too bad people want to believe the unbelievable.
I’ve learned my lesson. Do not assume that sources can be trusted, even from those who write books on natural perfumery and are considered leaders of the field.
My take home message: I won’t buy anything rare and/or pricey again until I either smell it first or get a small sample. Anything else is a just a very expensive crap shoot.
Jeanne, Matthew I’m going to get hold of this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ffj.2730090609/abstract and tell the GC person to be on the lookout for synth hydroxycitronellal and muguet alcohol 😉 My source told me that they probably had the concrete made just for this research and publication, and that it’s not in production.
I know if I ever was offered such a rare aromatic, I would perform due diligence, it’s just wrong to introduce something into the natural perfumery community on some sellers “say so”.
Matthew – how can you compare the smell of something you are offered unless you have a benchmark to smell it against? Also, think of how jasmine absolute smells different from the growing flower? How would you know what variance to accept? Still more – various distillers/extractors will produce slightly different products from year to year, etc. It’s more than a crap shoot – it’s a cesspool of con artists and gullible buyers who just don’t have the experience and skepticism necessary to bring a 100% natural product to market.
Don’t get me started on fruity compounds and a lot of the ‘natural’ isolates offered today.
So helpful. I’m learning so much. And you’re right. Sometimes the journey from flower to essence doesn’t lead to a favorable and pleasantly fragrant end – even for some true naturals. I’ve smelled so much jasmine over the years, that I can tell pretty quickly how good it is (such as the grasse jasmine I got from you, and treasure). For brand new essences, the cesspool awaits.
You know, a common hallmark of training in traditional perfumery is chemistry. I think a hallmark of natural perfumery training should be just this type of evaluation of oils. It’s critical.
Hmm. I do see the petroleum ether method described in the Good Scents company and wonder, though it wouldn’t be too rare if it appears there, would it. Since most elusive flowers can be recreated (in the nat & synth world via jasmolactones, LOTV substitute, orange blossom, a bit of rose -rhodinol or otherwise- and a peppering of accent pieces as per individual case) the matter is resolved there, but it remains here.
I wonder whether the supercritical CO2 extractions are the means to that end, i.e extracting a more “real” essence that can *then* be extended. Judging by MKK’s breakdown chart, what do you think?
Arctander wrote about the solvent and it is the most-quoted bit on HS abs. I am sure it is *occasionally* produced, especially in France, but the rarity and proprietary attitudes would preclude it being in general release, which, of course, the “Italian” version contradicts. Arctander also lists all of the bases, absolutes and other aromatic bits that can be used to create a “compounded” HS abs. Don’t forget, I’m also looking at the agricultural engineering aspect, which I fully cover in my textbook. Plant/field/growing conditions/harvest workers/facility/trained extractor, etc. Who is MKK?
PS the Japanese extraction I mentioned used hexane as the solvent, so PE isn’t the only one.
Hi Anya ! …
I really don’t understand why there should be any problem producing a Lonicera type absolute (or an EO for that matter) ?? – I mean, after all, if it’s so easily possible to produce absolutes from Jasmines, many of which the plants’ species are equally twining, deciduous climbers/vines such as Jasminum Officinale or even Grandiflorum. In many ways these plants are (or seem to at least) share similarities to each other (Jasminum/Lonicera) in form of climbing plant, flowers & even their scent. So if it’s possible to cultivate & extract an absolute (or EO) from one, I would’ve thought it just as easily possible for the other. I really do not see or understand why it should be so much more difficult to produce an absolute from one but not the other ?? … Plus I imagine with today’s technology extraction methods shouldn’t be a problem (if ever this was an issue) !?
So, any enlightenment on why it’s a problem to produce a honeysuckle absolute would be much appreciated. 🙂 – (Or is it just simply because it’s easiest to produce/compound a fake one instead ?? – Tho’ this doesn’t really make much sense to me as surely this would be equally so for other plant absolutes too, which are easily available.) – Plus I imagine there’s more than enough market for it, to justify any effort in producing one. … (Thanx in advance !) – J
There are a lot of factors why honeysuckle absolute isn’t produced.
1. no demand, as you noted, there are compounded and synthetic replacements, as is the case with gardenia. There are some gardenia absolutes out of China now, but they are inferior, being made from dried flowers.
2. no acreage devoted to it.
3. lack of experienced personnel to extract the concrete and absolute.
4. lack of demand
Dried honeysuckle flowers have been used for centuries in Chinese medicine, where they are a “go-to” herb. There is no use in perfumery for the dried flowers, only the fresh.
Hi, I did a bit of research on ‘honeysuckle absolute’ and deep in the spec sheets of one of the expensive sources I found that it contains the following ingredients: Honeysuckle Absolute oil is made with Rhodinol, benzyl acetate, linalol, methyl anthranilate, heliotropin. Personally, I do not think there is any honeysuckle absolute obtained from honeysuckle flowers. You have done a lot of work on this item and I commend your time and attention – too bad people want to believe the unbelievable.
GLORIOUS photo! Who wouldn’t wish for a honeysuckle absolute to work with. Oh, well. Thanks for this post.
I’ve learned my lesson. Do not assume that sources can be trusted, even from those who write books on natural perfumery and are considered leaders of the field.
My take home message: I won’t buy anything rare and/or pricey again until I either smell it first or get a small sample. Anything else is a just a very expensive crap shoot.
Jeanne, Matthew I’m going to get hold of this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ffj.2730090609/abstract and tell the GC person to be on the lookout for synth hydroxycitronellal and muguet alcohol 😉 My source told me that they probably had the concrete made just for this research and publication, and that it’s not in production.
I know if I ever was offered such a rare aromatic, I would perform due diligence, it’s just wrong to introduce something into the natural perfumery community on some sellers “say so”.
Matthew – how can you compare the smell of something you are offered unless you have a benchmark to smell it against? Also, think of how jasmine absolute smells different from the growing flower? How would you know what variance to accept? Still more – various distillers/extractors will produce slightly different products from year to year, etc. It’s more than a crap shoot – it’s a cesspool of con artists and gullible buyers who just don’t have the experience and skepticism necessary to bring a 100% natural product to market.
Don’t get me started on fruity compounds and a lot of the ‘natural’ isolates offered today.
Thanks for posting,
Anya
So helpful. I’m learning so much. And you’re right. Sometimes the journey from flower to essence doesn’t lead to a favorable and pleasantly fragrant end – even for some true naturals. I’ve smelled so much jasmine over the years, that I can tell pretty quickly how good it is (such as the grasse jasmine I got from you, and treasure). For brand new essences, the cesspool awaits.
You know, a common hallmark of training in traditional perfumery is chemistry. I think a hallmark of natural perfumery training should be just this type of evaluation of oils. It’s critical.
Hmm. I do see the petroleum ether method described in the Good Scents company and wonder, though it wouldn’t be too rare if it appears there, would it. Since most elusive flowers can be recreated (in the nat & synth world via jasmolactones, LOTV substitute, orange blossom, a bit of rose -rhodinol or otherwise- and a peppering of accent pieces as per individual case) the matter is resolved there, but it remains here.
I wonder whether the supercritical CO2 extractions are the means to that end, i.e extracting a more “real” essence that can *then* be extended. Judging by MKK’s breakdown chart, what do you think?
Hi Elena:
Arctander wrote about the solvent and it is the most-quoted bit on HS abs. I am sure it is *occasionally* produced, especially in France, but the rarity and proprietary attitudes would preclude it being in general release, which, of course, the “Italian” version contradicts. Arctander also lists all of the bases, absolutes and other aromatic bits that can be used to create a “compounded” HS abs. Don’t forget, I’m also looking at the agricultural engineering aspect, which I fully cover in my textbook. Plant/field/growing conditions/harvest workers/facility/trained extractor, etc. Who is MKK?
PS the Japanese extraction I mentioned used hexane as the solvent, so PE isn’t the only one.
Thanks for stopping by! xoxo
Anya
Hi Anya ! …
I really don’t understand why there should be any problem producing a Lonicera type absolute (or an EO for that matter) ?? – I mean, after all, if it’s so easily possible to produce absolutes from Jasmines, many of which the plants’ species are equally twining, deciduous climbers/vines such as Jasminum Officinale or even Grandiflorum. In many ways these plants are (or seem to at least) share similarities to each other (Jasminum/Lonicera) in form of climbing plant, flowers & even their scent. So if it’s possible to cultivate & extract an absolute (or EO) from one, I would’ve thought it just as easily possible for the other. I really do not see or understand why it should be so much more difficult to produce an absolute from one but not the other ?? … Plus I imagine with today’s technology extraction methods shouldn’t be a problem (if ever this was an issue) !?
So, any enlightenment on why it’s a problem to produce a honeysuckle absolute would be much appreciated. 🙂 – (Or is it just simply because it’s easiest to produce/compound a fake one instead ?? – Tho’ this doesn’t really make much sense to me as surely this would be equally so for other plant absolutes too, which are easily available.) – Plus I imagine there’s more than enough market for it, to justify any effort in producing one. … (Thanx in advance !) – J
Hi Julz:
There are a lot of factors why honeysuckle absolute isn’t produced.
1. no demand, as you noted, there are compounded and synthetic replacements, as is the case with gardenia. There are some gardenia absolutes out of China now, but they are inferior, being made from dried flowers.
2. no acreage devoted to it.
3. lack of experienced personnel to extract the concrete and absolute.
4. lack of demand
HTH,
Anya
Hi Anya, concerning honeysuckle what are your thoughts on the dried flowers being sold?
R
Hi Rodney:
Thanks for stopping by, long time no see!
Dried honeysuckle flowers have been used for centuries in Chinese medicine, where they are a “go-to” herb. There is no use in perfumery for the dried flowers, only the fresh.
xoxo,
Anya